Origin of Galach

Moderator: SandChigger

Post Reply
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

Found this while I was reading an article on the pre-history of Russia in our historical atlas with my son the other day. Thought the similarity in the name was interesting.
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

:)

Galach is also a Hebrew word meaning "bald", and "to shave", and by extension also "priest" I believe.

It's also used as a family name.
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
chanilover
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by chanilover »

I just assumed Galach came from Galactic, as in Galactic Standard language. Does anyone know where the word came from?
Image
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

That's my working assumption, as well.

The Russian version of the word is galakticheskiy.

I'm not even sure how FH pronounced it. Was the final "ch" an affricate like in "church", or was it a (voiceless velar) fricative like the "ch" in Scottish "loch" or German "Bach", or was it the "lazy English ch" = "k" that most English speakers use for "loch" and "Bach". Does he ever read a passage in which the word appears in all those recordings? Anyone know?

There are several ways (sound changes) of getting to either pronunciation, but each applies across the lexicon and results in fairly different languages...
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
The Phantom
Posts: 597
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:06 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by The Phantom »

i think i remember a clip of him pronouncing it on that FH pronounciation guide website... someone here had a link to it on their website. crap i should really bookmark it :S
I am not my own.
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

You don't mean this, http://www.usul.net/books/sounds.htm, on Usul's homepage, do you? It's not there.... :(

Omph, do you have recordings or remember who does?

Edit:

If his pronunciation of "Kwisatz Haderach" (Kvi-ssats HADder-ack) is any indication, the language name would be GAL-ack.
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
Freakzilla
Archivist
Posts: 3453
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: Duluth, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Freakzilla »

SandChigger wrote:That's my working assumption, as well.

The Russian version of the word is galakticheskiy.

I'm not even sure how FH pronounced it. Was the final "ch" an affricate like in "church", or was it a (voiceless velar) fricative like the "ch" in Scottish "loch" or German "Bach", or was it the "lazy English ch" = "k" that most English speakers use for "loch" and "Bach". Does he ever read a passage in which the word appears in all those recordings? Anyone know?

There are several ways (sound changes) of getting to either pronunciation, but each applies across the lexicon and results in fairly different languages...
I was wondering about this recently. I've always read it as a "k" sound but something made me think it could be "ch". Maybe it was from listening to the Audio Book? I that's what it was.
They were destroyed because they lied pretentiously. Have no fear that my wrath
will fall upon you because of your innocent mistakes.

~Leto II, God Emperor
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

In my head I always had it like that frickin' molar thing you were talking about. As in "loch."
SandChigger wrote:You don't mean this, http://www.usul.net/books/sounds.htm, on Usul's homepage, do you? It's not there.... :(

Omph, do you have recordings or remember who does?

Edit:

If his pronunciation of "Kwisatz Haderach" (Kvi-ssats HADder-ack) is any indication, the language name would be GAL-ack.
Man, I thought I archived this in the secondary sources. There is a pronounciation guide out there other than the one on Usul's homepage and the Arabic Themes in Dune page. Maybe I have it in my links at home. Shit! I hate it when I forget to put up important stuff!
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Velar. Velar thing. :P

I don't remember seeing a link like that. :(
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

Frickin' fricative, molar volar, whatever man. Ill stick with motions for summary judgment and voir dire, thank you very much.

Im certain I found somehting in the past that will help with this. Im just drawing a blank about what it was.
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Qu'est-ce que veut dire <<voir dire>>?! :?
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

videre dicere.

Damned if I can find what I was thinking of earlier. :?
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Et quod est videre dicere? :P

A while back, when the topic of the audiobooks came up somewhere, or a new one came out, someone (Brick?) posted copies of the pronunciation notes derived from FH's notes and sent by Brian. I can't remember if it was on a publisher's site or over on Dune Novels. Could that be what you're thinking of?
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
Freakzilla
Archivist
Posts: 3453
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: Duluth, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Freakzilla »

SandChigger wrote:Et quod est videre dicere? :P

A while back, when the topic of the audiobooks came up somewhere, or a new one came out, someone (Brick?) posted copies of the pronunciation notes derived from FH's notes and sent by Brian. I can't remember if it was on a publisher's site or over on Dune Novels. Could that be what you're thinking of?
I don't recall seeing that, would like to though.
They were destroyed because they lied pretentiously. Have no fear that my wrath
will fall upon you because of your innocent mistakes.

~Leto II, God Emperor
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

Testimonium et regnum legi. Lex dico et demonstro (video,volo) juris, oepide. :P

It wasn't the Brick thing. It was much more useful.
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

O Oedipe! Ego in volvo varumvarumo. :P


I'll post a link if I can find it again, Freak, but the "Brick thing" was just one or two image files of pix of the notes Brian sent. I don't believe they were supposed to be Frank's handwriting or anything like that, and if I remember correctly it looked like there had been handwritten additions over the years Brick's been doing the recordings. Minimal informational content, IIRC. (As you would expect, given who we're talking about. ;) )
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

Quod? Cui matri est in Volvo? Oepide est Latin nam "motherfucker." Est vocative, frate.

Just what we need. Brian's pronounciation notes. Can someone please give us a facsimile of those notes, writ in crayon?
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
Freakzilla
Archivist
Posts: 3453
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: Duluth, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Freakzilla »

Ahh... this explains the "CH" pronunciation!

:lol:
They were destroyed because they lied pretentiously. Have no fear that my wrath
will fall upon you because of your innocent mistakes.

~Leto II, God Emperor
chanilover
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by chanilover »

SandChigger wrote:Qu'est-ce que veut dire <<voir dire>>?! :?
Voir dire is a corruption of vrai dire, from the times when the courts in England used Norman French and people didn't really understand what the words meant. So now you know.
Image
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

O merci, tanks an spasiba. :P

(The English never have been much good with languages, eh? Started out speaking German and look wot they done to it! :lol: )
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

chanilover wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Qu'est-ce que veut dire <<voir dire>>?! :?
Voir dire is a corruption of vrai dire, from the times when the courts in England used Norman French and people didn't really understand what the words meant. So now you know.
Which came from the latin, videre dicere, no?
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Non.
In origin it refers to an oath to tell the truth (Latin verum dicere), in other words to give a true verdict. The word voir (or voire), in this context, is an old French word meaning "truth". It is unconnected with the modern French word voir, which derives from Latin vidēre ("to see"), though the expression is now often interpreted by false etymology to mean "to see [them] say".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Meany, meany, tinkle, Ompharsin! (=handwriting on the C-H wall :P )
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

Ah. I must have assumed the "v" part of it came from to see. Makes more sense this way.

I wish I could remember how to speak and read that langauge. I sure took it for enough years that something should have stuck, other than how to call someone a motherfucker (which isn't even literally correct).
SandChigger wrote:Meany, meany, tinkle, Ompharsin! (=handwriting on the C-H wall :P )
What, did you just translate my poor latin above or something?
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
chanilover
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by chanilover »

Not sure about the Wiki definition, but my trusted Mozley & Whiteley's Law Dictionary says voir dire is a corruption of vrai dire, which is was my lecturer in uni said as well. Two to one against, I call BS on Wiki!
Image
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Well, not having an Old French dictionary at hand, can't say one way or the other. Do you know the complete etymology of vrai, that it doesn't include an interlude as voir(e)? ;)


Edit: Omph, not sure now where the writing on the wall reference came from. :? Sometimes these things just have a mind of their own ... inside my mind. :P I think there must have been some connection between Mene, Mene, ... and Eeny Meeny.... Who knows! :D
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
chanilover
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by chanilover »

SandChigger wrote:Well, not having an Old French dictionary at hand, can't say one way or the other. Do you know the complete etymology of vrai, that it doesn't include an interlude as voir(e)? ;)
Anything's possible, I suppose. It seems odd that the phrase uses a possible intermediate form of vrai but the modern version of dire. I think I'll stick to the corrupted version caused by English judges and laywers no longer being able to understand French. There are other examples of mis-spelt French words in English law.
Image
User avatar
ionah
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:13 am
Location: beyond the next dune
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by ionah »

in its more "primitive" written and certainly spoken form, French language used a lot of "o" were you'll today read an "a". plus, because of a diftongue or something alike, you move the "r" from between two letters (unconvenient to speak out) to the end. with this "magic trick" you make a "voir" out of a "vrai".

got it ? :think:
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Wee-wee! Mercy! :P
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

Ive got a copy of Black's Law Dictionary at work. It has etymology info in the definitions. Ill see what it has to say when I get back into the office tomorrow.

Vrai, I assume, is a French verb meaning to see?
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

No, but voir is. Vrai means true. :)

Nou gavari-touis pa-Franchusk? ;)
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

So we are debating whether Wiki is right when it says "truth" or CL's legal dictionary, which says "true" is right?

Fuck it. If anyone asks, I'm still tellin' 'em it comes from videre.
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Dictionary app says
voir dire |ˈvwär ˈdi(ə)r| noun
Law: a preliminary examination of a witness or a juror by a judge or counsel.
• an oath taken by such a witness.

ORIGIN Law French, from Old French voir ‘true’ + dire ‘say.’
So it's probably safer to assume it's verum dicere. :|
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

Black's Law Dictionary attributes it simply as "L. Fr." and defines it as "To speak the truth." Sounds like they agree that its from verum and not a French derivitive of the Latin word videre.
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

If I run into the French prof here at lunch today, I'll ask him. He was quite helpful a few weeks back when I asked his opinion on what words English might use for the meats if Europeans had eaten dogs and cats. (Regularly, that is.)

(No, I'm not kidding. I do that kind of thing to him all the time. He expects it now. ;) )
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
Freakzilla
Archivist
Posts: 3453
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: Duluth, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Freakzilla »

SandChigger wrote:If I run into the French prof here at lunch today, I'll ask him. He was quite helpful a few weeks back when I asked his opinion on what words English might use for the meats if Europeans had eaten dogs and cats. (Regularly, that is.)

(No, I'm not kidding. I do that kind of thing to him all the time. He expects it now. ;) )
You mean like instead of words like pork and beef? Well, what would the words for dog and cat meat be? I'm dying to know, now.
They were destroyed because they lied pretentiously. Have no fear that my wrath
will fall upon you because of your innocent mistakes.

~Leto II, God Emperor
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

test
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Well, not so much "instead of" as "in addition to". :)

It was just a weird idea that came up after class one day when the English vocabulary for animals and their meats came up. The animals are mostly known by their Anglo-Saxon names, the meat by the Old French. (Supposedly because the peons were raising the beasties but the Norman conquerors was les gens to manger them. ;) )

cow : beef (< Old French boef)
(Also calf : veal < Anglo-Norman French veel?)
pig/swine : pork (< OF porc) (But there's also ham! :) )
sheep : mutton (< OF moton)
deer : venison (< OF venesoun)

(Also poultry for domestic fowl < OF pouletrie)

We had a bit of trouble finding the Old French words for dog and cat. Maybe one of the wonderful French people here now could help? :D
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Ask one of the people from Quebec, I'm told they basically speak 200-300 year old French.
I deleted some of your posts because they were derailing the topic and not focusing on the issues asked, and instead going after the authors or their material. That's why. ~ BM
chanilover
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by chanilover »

Well this is a mystery wrapped up in an enigma. :lol: Another example of bastardised French in English law are the old 'pie powder' courts which were merchant courts which sat in market towns. The word comes from the fact that merchants tramped into courts with dust and powder on their feet, looking grubby. Pie powder comes from Norman French 'pieds pouldres', meaning 'dusty feet'.

By the way, don't North Americans speak a bastardised form of 200 year old English? :mrgreen:
Image
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Yes.

Happy? :P
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
Eyes High
Momma Eyes
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:39 pm
Location: between the worlds of men and make believe

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Eyes High »

chanilover wrote:....

By the way, don't North Americans speak a bastardised form of 200 year old English? :mrgreen:
We Americans probably speak a bastardised form of most European languages in one way or another. :lol: ;)

Qui?
I shall lift up my eyes unto the glory of the Lord.
Image

Safety's just danger out of place.
chanilover
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by chanilover »

Que?
Image
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Donde? :?
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
Eyes High
Momma Eyes
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:39 pm
Location: between the worlds of men and make believe

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Eyes High »

chanilover wrote:Que?

yeah. see some of us yankies can't even spell our mistakes. :oops:
I shall lift up my eyes unto the glory of the Lord.
Image

Safety's just danger out of place.
User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Eyes High wrote:
chanilover wrote:Que?

yeah. see some of us yankies can't even spell our mistakes. :oops:
Nice one! :clap:
I deleted some of your posts because they were derailing the topic and not focusing on the issues asked, and instead going after the authors or their material. That's why. ~ BM
chanilover
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by chanilover »

Eyes High wrote:
chanilover wrote:Que?

yeah. see some of us yankies can't even spell our mistakes. :oops:
I thought you were a Southerner.
Image
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

She is.

Freak's the only one not embarrassed to admit it. :P
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
Freakzilla
Archivist
Posts: 3453
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: Duluth, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Freakzilla »

SandChigger wrote:She is.

Freak's the only one not embarrassed to admit it. :P
Image
They were destroyed because they lied pretentiously. Have no fear that my wrath
will fall upon you because of your innocent mistakes.

~Leto II, God Emperor
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

:lol:

That's purdy.

(Pssst! See what I mean! :shock: )

I can't remember if I've ever mentioned this but my father was from Kentucky. His father had grown up around Piketon, Ohio, but had moved to northern Kentucky, where he met my grandmother. Her family had been in Kentucky for generations and she had that Southern/Confederate thang goin', too. (She's also the one who claimed she had a tetch of the second sight.) Used to drive my mother crazy. My grandfather would just shake his head at them and start talking about his years on the C&O. :D
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
Freakzilla
Archivist
Posts: 3453
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: Duluth, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Freakzilla »

Not all Southerners are redecks. Some of us have enough class to remove the Marlboro from our lips before telling the State Trooper to kiss our ass.

:P

Speaking of heritage, I recently received this from my dad about my 3rd Great-Grandfather's military service:

Joseph Samuel Hilburn(GGGGF) and his brother Isom. Joseph served in two different CSA units and survived the war to marry and raise nine children. His brother Isom (also CSA) was wounded & captured at the Battle of Island No 10 (on the Mississippi near the Tenn - Kentucky border), and sent to a POW camp in Wisconsin where he died. Three of Joseph Samuel Hilburn's daughters married three Kendrick boys. The Kendrick boys were cousins to each other...

Cousin,
I was looking on http://www.footnote.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to see if I had missed anything on our Samuel T. Hilburn's service record. I knew that one of the papers in his record had S. T. Hillman instead of Hilburn. Right next to him was one for J. S. Hilburn. He was in the SAME company as our Samuel. I almost flipped. I think this is our Joseph S. Hilburn and he ended up in the same company and regiment as his father. There was nothing in his service record that mentioned that he was in the 28th. I am writing a fellow who knows a lot about the 28th and I'll let you know what he says. Below is what I have been able to come up with so far . I am excited about this little bit of info as it means he somehow joined his father. Samuel was a prisoner of War and was on the Gunboat "Diana" on the Bayou Teche. Will keep you posted.

Jerry Lou

Hugh Simmons, an expert on the 12th LA Regiment helped me reconstruct the service of my Great, Great Grandfather.
July/August 1861: Henry Van McCain recruited and organized a company of
volunteers mainly drawn from Winn Parish at Montgomery, Louisiana. Self
styled the "Beauregard Fencibles," they enlisted in state service at
Montgomery, traveled to New Orleans by steamboat and then north of Lake
Ponchatrain by railroad to Camp Moore. At Camp Moore, they were
transferred into Confederate service on August 18, 1861 as Company K of the
12th Louisiana Infantry. They went into service as 12 month volunteers.

September 1861 - February 1862:

12th Louisiana stationed at Columbus, Kentucky.

Captain Van McCain and 2nd Lieutenant William F. Howell returned home to
recruit new members for the company. Joseph S. HILBOURN and his brother
Isom C. HILBOURN were enrolled in Confederate service at Montgomery on
February 10, 1862. [Booth's archivists incorrectly transcribed the
abbreviation for Montgomery as Monterey].
March 1862 - May 1862:

Regiment withdrawn initially to Island No. 10 in the Mississippi River near
New Madrid, Missouri on March 1st. At mid-March they were transferred
south to Fort Pillow, Tennessee as the primary infantry support to the
Confederate artillery posted there overlooking the Mississippi River.
Passage of the Confederate Conscription Act in April 1862 required enrolled Confederate military service of all white, male residents. Twelve
month volunteer regiments such as the 12th Louisiana were re-organized and
re-enrolled to serve for three years or the duration of the war. The alpha
designation of Company K was changed to Company D.

Private Isom C. HILBOURN was left behind sick in the hospital at Island No.
10 and was subsequently captured on April 7, 1862. He was sent to Camp
Randall, Wisconsin where he died of disease on May 9, 1862. The site of
Camp Randall now hosts the University of Wisconsin's Randall Stadium. Isom
C. HILBOURN is listed among the Confederates buried in the Confederate Lot
in Forest Hill Cemetery in Madison, Wisconsin.

June 1862 - December 1862:

Fort Pillow was abandoned at the end of May and Memphis lost to the Federal
navy. By early June 1862, the 12th Louisiana Infantry was camped at
Abbeville, Mississippi. They were assigned to Brigadier General John B.
Villepigue's brigade while still at Fort Pillow and came actively under his
control when relocated to northern Mississippi. The Confederate Army of
Tennessee was formed in the summer of 1862 from units in northern
Mississippi and transferred to Chattanooga, Tennessee. The 12th Louisiana
did not become part of this army until May 1864 at the beginning of the
Atlanta Campaign.

Private Joseph S. HILBOURN was noted on the company muster roll covering
May/June 1862 to be "absent sick in Covington, Tennessee." Covington,
Tennessee was the site of a Confederate hospital complex servicing the
units defending the Mississippi River above Memphis. This muster was done
on June 30, 1862 and reflects his status as of that day. The muster roll
covering November/December 1862 states that he was discharged on November
18th [19th in the CMSR] by order of Colonel Boyd. Reason for his discharge
was not stated in the records, but it was for poor health per his own post
war testimony. JSH states that he was at Jackson, Mississippi when the
discharge was given him which indicates that he was still absent in the
Confederate hospital system. The regiment began a retreat from Abbeville
to Grenada on the date that this discharge was granted.

Note: James A. BOYD was Captain of a Caldwell Parish company of the
regiment at its organization at Camp Moore in 1861 and was elected
Lieutenant Colonel of the regiment on May 4, 1862 at Fort Pillow to replace
LTC Wade H. Hough who resigned. Military protocol allows a Lieutenant
Colonel to be addressed as "Colonel." Colonel BOYD resigned his position
on January 5, 1863.

January 1863 - September 1863:

Joseph's post war testimony was that he was at home for a few months and
after regaining his strength, he joined Captain Kidd's cavalry company in
the fall of 1863. He is quite consistent on this point. Captain M. B.
KIDD assumed command of the Jackson Volunteers in the 1st State Battalion
of Louisiana Infantry at the end of July 1863. Captain J. R. Kavanaugh was
in command prior to this and JSH does not ever mention him. Joining
Captain KIDD's company in the fall of 1863 is consistent with the records
of this unit.

Whether they were acting as infantry or were already informally mounted as
cavalry is not clear. Bergeron's Guide states that Clark's Cavalry
Battalion was first organized in March 1863 as part of the Louisiana State
Army. They performed picket duty and chased Jayhawkers during 1863. It is
possible that Captain KIDD's company of the 1st State Battalion of
Louisiana Infantry was mounted by the fall of 1863 and informally
reassigned to Clark's Battalion.

At one point JSH estimates that he got home "about 1863" and was home 4
months before joining the cavalry. You have to read between the lines that
he was trying to avoid explaining why it took him so long to join the
cavalry after returning home. He could have reached home from Jackson,
Mississippi by Christmas 1862 or New Year's Day 1863. Chances are very
high that he was suffering from chronic diarrhea [he was absent sick for
about six months before being discharged] and that isn't easy to recover
from. Many men died from this malady which was a function of poor rations
[vitamin C deficiency] and polluted drinking water. A balanced diet and
clean water usually restored men to more normal health although many never
ever fully recovered from its effects.

The Louisiana State Guard was formed in February 1864 and then transferred
into Confederate service in March 1864. The 1st State Battalion of
Louisiana Infantry was formally dissolved in March 1864, its companies
officially mounted and transferred into the 2nd State Guards Battalion of
Cavalry. Bergeron's Guide was unable to identify the alpha designation of
Captain KIDD's company at this point in time but placed it in the 2nd State
Guards Cavalry. This is possibly another clue that KIDD's company was
actually operating independently or with Clark's battalion.

KIDD's company may have been mounted and operating informally under the
battalion command of Benjamin W. Clark since the fall of 1863. Or JSH's
memory may be faulty on this technical point. Or he may have joined some
other cavalry company and did not transfer into Captain KIDD's command
until sometime in 1864. For the purposes of recounting his service record for posterity, I would assume that he joined Captain KIDD's company
[mounted infantry or cavalry] in the fall of 1863 as he said and follow its
history. Major Clark was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel and command of the
1st State Guards Battalion of Cavalry in February 1864. The two cavalry
battalions were consolidated to form the 8th Louisiana Cavalry Regiment at
the end of October 1864. Captain M. B. KIDD's company is identified as
Company E of the 8th Louisiana Cavalry.

Bergeron's Guide states "Confederate authorities may have dismounted
the regiment late in the war. The regiment appears to have been near
Natchitoches or Mansfield at the surrender in May 1865."
Joseph’s brother, Isom/Isham Hilburn, contracted Typhoid, was captured by the Union Forces in Tennessee and sent to a Union Hospital at Camp Randall, Wisconsin where he died and is buried in a section of Confederate Soldiers.
His comrades were Joe Roper, Miles Roper, and Jim Curry who were from Montgomery, LA Jack Sykes and B. Howell were two other comrades who were from Vernon, LA. Joseph Hilburn was camping on the Red River near Campti, LA at the surrender.
Sometime early in 1865, he married Sarah Wilson from Winn Parish, LA. Sarah’s two half brothers, Jackson Williams and James B. Williams also served in the 12th LA regiment. He and Sarah had nine children one of them being my great grandmother, Mesie Hilburn. Joseph was a farmer his whole life.
Comrades:

Roper, Joseph, Pvt. Sergt. Co. D, 12th La. Inf. En. Aug. 18, 1861, Camp Moore, La. Present on
Roll to Oct. 31, 1861. Roll May and June, 1862, Died May 5 at Fort Pillow of typhoid fever.

Roper, Miles, Pvt. Co. D, 12th La. Inf. En. Aug. 18, 1861, Camp Moore, La. Present on Rolls to
Oct. 31, 1861. Roll May and June, 1862, Present, with remarks: On detached service guarding a
bridge on Miss.
Curry, James D., Pvt. Co. D. 12th La. Infty. En. Feb. 10th, 1862, Montgomery, Ala. Roll for May
and June, 1862, Died May 8th at Fort Pillow of typhoid fever
They were destroyed because they lied pretentiously. Have no fear that my wrath
will fall upon you because of your innocent mistakes.

~Leto II, God Emperor
Omphalos
Alien Overlord
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Omphalos »

My family was for the most part Southern too. My mom's family immigraged in the early 1640s to Charleston and pretty much stayed there until my mom came along. Dad's family went to to the southern part of the Chesapeake Bay in the early 1630's too, then made a great big loop over the years all the way out to Oklahoma, then back to VA where I was born. We don't consider ourselves Southern though. Especially now that I live in the land of Fruits & Nuts.
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



The Omphalos Umbrella Page
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

Not so much a state of the Union as a state of mind... :D
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
Eyes High
Momma Eyes
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:39 pm
Location: between the worlds of men and make believe

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Eyes High »

chanilover wrote:
Eyes High wrote:
chanilover wrote:Que?

yeah. see some of us yankies can't even spell our mistakes. :oops:
I thought you were a Southerner.
Oui. I am. Of course in this case I was using the term yanky as it referred to an American.

I am actually at least the 11th or 12th generation born in North Carolina on my mother side of the family. We have been in North Carolina a long time. (I have the honour of saying that one of my distant ancestors came to NC in 1585 on an expedition just a year after Sir Walter Raleigh's first expedition.) All though originally that side of the family hailed from France and Ireland.

In fact maybe some of y'all who are good with languages could help me. I've heard two different supposed meanings for the family name. In a book about some of my ancestors part of the introduction reads:
...The name Autrey-Autry is of French origin and derives from Aldric meaning "old, powerful." Bandsley, in a Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames, states that it is a baptismal name well know in York County, England. The earliest record is of a Simeon Autrey at Johanna in 1379. The late Mahan Blair Autry states in his book, The Family and Descendants fo Captain John Autry, that the name means "different" in French ("autre")....
I was wondering, which one does it mean or can it have both meanings?
I shall lift up my eyes unto the glory of the Lord.
Image

Safety's just danger out of place.
User avatar
The Phantom
Posts: 597
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:06 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by The Phantom »

i think autre is the french word for 'other' but in my drunken state i couild be wrong
I am not my own.
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

I don't have any of the good etymological dictionaries here at the house now, but the Aldric one definitely looks Anglo-Saxon/Old English. For it to be the source of the name, the initial al- would have had to change to au-, the -d- to -t-, and the -ic to (e)y. All of which are possible, and names do funny things sometimes, but since we have alderman and old (auld) with the 'l' and 'd' retained, it seems a bit unlikely, especially since there's the Autrey name attested from 1379. I'd go with the French origin. (I assume autre derives from Latin alter/altra/altrum.)

FWIW. :)
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
User avatar
ionah
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:13 am
Location: beyond the next dune
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by ionah »

yes, "autre" is a derivative from (alter/atra/altrum) which gives also "alternatif" or "alter-ego" but must not be confound with (alienus, a, um) which gives "aliéner" or alien (in english)


le Trésor de la Langue Française Informatisée
http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlfv3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dictionnaire Français-Latin
http://www.lexilogos.com/latin_langue_dictionnaires.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Eyes High
Momma Eyes
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:39 pm
Location: between the worlds of men and make believe

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by Eyes High »

well the book did note that the name had gone through at least 27 different spellings. My family uses the Autry spelling.

And thank you guys for your help.
I shall lift up my eyes unto the glory of the Lord.
Image

Safety's just danger out of place.
User avatar
SandChigger
Archivist
Posts: 4577
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Sietch Tigr, near Arrakeen
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by SandChigger »

ionah wrote:yes, "autre" is a derivative from (alter/atra/altrum) which gives also "alternatif" or "alter-ego" but must not be confound with (alienus, a, um) which gives "aliéner" or alien (in english)

le Trésor de la Langue Française Informatisée
http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlfv3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dictionnaire Français-Latin
http://www.lexilogos.com/latin_langue_dictionnaires.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Merci! You are a scholar and a gentleman!

Good links. :D
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
ᴶᵛᵀᴬ
Joseph-Vintimille Tariki Askaris
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:25 am
Location: Jacurutu Ф TΛU Ф MdC
Contact:

Re: Origin of Galach

Post by ᴶᵛᵀᴬ »

Chère amie ... The Autry Family Association <http://www.autreyheritage.com/>

Found in WorldCat <http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AA ... ot_subject>:

Title.........The family and descendants of Captain John Autry.
Author......Mahan Blair Autry
Publisher...Corsicana, (Texas), 1964, 209 p. coat of arms, port. 28 cm.
..............Salem (Mass.) : Higginson Book Co., [2001], Reprint.

and 37 results...
    Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image
    ۞ Shaihuludata gigantica Gratia, Fidei defensor ۞
      User avatar
      Eyes High
      Momma Eyes
      Posts: 1220
      Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:39 pm
      Location: between the worlds of men and make believe

      Re: Origin of Galach

      Post by Eyes High »

      Merci dear friend. Thank you for the links. They are now saved to my favorites list so that I may refer back to them.
      In fact, the second link had this book listed:
      The Descendants of Cornelius Autry, Immigrant, of Edgecombe County, North Carolina [and] Neil Culbreth of Sampson County, North Carolina, and Allied Families
      Author: V Mayo Bundy; Robert Autry Brooks
      Publisher: Charlotte, NC : Herb Eaton Historical Publications, 1996.
      Edition/Format: Book : English : 2nd ed
      Which is the book that I quoted from in my earlier post. I appreciate the help. I'll be sending the links to my brother as well so that he (or his daughter) may also do some researching of our family.


      :text-thankyouyellow: Merci :text-thankyoublue:
      I shall lift up my eyes unto the glory of the Lord.
      Image

      Safety's just danger out of place.
      Post Reply

      Return to “Galach Conlang Project”