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THE (ALMOST) UNDELETED • View topic - Should Israel & Palestine be admitted to the union?

Should Israel & Palestine be admitted to the union?

Any old topic will do, I suppose.

Should Israel & Palestine be admitted to the union?

Postby Omphalos » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:51 am

Moved from Jacurutu, as Im sure Freak would rather this conversation happen here. Sorry if Im wrong Freak. Just trying to keep Jacurutu the way you've said you want it kept.

HoosierDaddy wrote:You are not seeing nearly far enough ahead here. This would be a possible scenario.

Both Israel and Palestine vote on US statehood, and it passes by some miracle. Palestine agrees to it because it would promote economic growth, infrastructure, security, and a heck of a lot more than being at the butt end of Israel's occupation. The US promises religious freedom for all, under the constitution, and the US focuses on improving their standard of living.

Israel votes for it because they are getting close to being Hisballah's bitch. Their last "encounter" proved that conventional warfare tactics and weaponry has caught up with them. Would the US abandon Israel to their own devices if they vote against statehood? Is Israel prepared for dropping a nuke as a last resort? Being a US state is little different than it is now. since Israel has to get Washington's approval for any military action. Being a 51st state would totally guarantee Israel's security.

Now for the politics. Iran/Syria would be caught between a rock and a hard place. Would they attack this 51st state, knowing that they go against the US directly, and against the popular vote of Palestine? The US would hold out a hand for world peace, and assure that the region would be free, and religiously neutral. Bush has already stated that the Islamic God and the Christian God are the same. What would happen if the US and Iran eventually agree to formulate world peace?

Now for the economics. How much does the US (and the entire world) spend on the middle east crisis, the "war on terror", the "threat" of Iran, and foreign aid to Israel? This number can surely be calculated, and I would guess we are looking at tens to hundreds of billions from the US alone. What price tag do you put on world peace in the next 50 years?

The huge question here is could Israel and Palestine agree to a central government; i.e. statehood, or something similar. Statehood isn't the only answer. What other conditions could throw Israel and Palestine together, for once, to assure their mutual benefit and prosperity?

:smoke:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I dont quite know how they are managing to cram so much sunshine and and fairy powder into the weed in the midwest, but you really need to put the bong down. Nothing is worth the headache this would cause. Now, I thought you were saying that we should make Israel a state. Now I see that you are proposing that Israel and the Palestinian territories both should be made one? Really. OK. Lets admit into our stable union two factions that have been on the brink of war since 1947. Aside from guaranteeing Constitutional rights and protections to a nation that only the day before was run by terrorists, do you honestly think that once they join the union the Jews and the Palestinians are going to stop killing one another? That no Intifada would ever happen again? Seriously dude. Think it out before you open you mouth. This is even stupider than what I thought you were proposing. We really have some serious hurdles to get past before we can even think of normalizing relations with the Palestinians. Plus, not even Jordan would want a permenant American presence in the Middle East of the scope you have suggested.

Really, Im sorry for the personal attacks here. I tend to run off at the mouth pretty easily. Ask anyone here. I do it all the time. So please dont think that I am calling you stupid, because I dont know you well enough to say at all yet. But this really is the dumbest thing I have heard in a looooooong time. There are so many problem that I see with this that I just cant believe that you have thought about this at all in any way other than "gee, wouldnt it be peachy if......" Things like this:

Being a 51st state would totally guarantee Israel's security.


Are laughably naive. Serioiusly, there are a number of really good foreign policy publications out there (Im talking periodicals here) that cover the viewpoint on both sides of the aisle. Why dont you go to a good bookstore in your area and read up a bit on this? I'd love to discuss this with someone, but...God's honest truth here, this is so silly that its not worth the time to consider.

Here is something to start with. Lets look at what you said here:

Now for the politics. Iran/Syria would be caught between a rock and a hard place. Would they attack this 51st state, knowing that they go against the US directly, and against the popular vote of Palestine? The US would hold out a hand for world peace, and assure that the region would be free, and religiously neutral.


Here is why this is naive. Nobody gives a shit about Palestine, and, get this, they never really have. Palestine is used to whip up religious fervor and incite people to violence. [snicker]Once Palestine votes to become a state[/snicker], then the focus is taken off of them and put on the risk that having a US political entity in the region poses. Guess what happens then?

Do you think that Iran, with its huge army and a hair's bredth distance before they get nuclear bombs is going to back down? Hell no. All they need to do is finish building one bomb and the rest of the world will back them in the push for conventional warfare only. IOW, they build a bomb, and Russia, and possibly our European allies send messages that say, "consider using nukes here, and we go to war with you." Iran gets one bomb and puts Israel, India, Turkey, Afghanistan and a number of other strategic allies at risk for nuclear attack. We would never in our right minds engage in nuclear brinksmanship with them then. So they invade a US state with conventional weapons and maybe even take it from us? How on Earth do the risks of this situation justify a move like this? Literally, there would be no end to the threats. I could go on all day with scenarios like this.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:21 pm

I read the title of this thread and thought someone was proposing putting them in the European union.
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Postby Omphalos » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:42 pm

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I read the title of this thread and thought someone was proposing putting them in the European union.


Damn foreigners. :D
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Postby Serkanner » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:15 pm

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I read the title of this thread and thought someone was proposing putting them in the European union.


I wouldn't be the least surprised if that actually happens somewhere the next 2 decades.
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Postby Omphalos » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:26 pm

Serkanner wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I read the title of this thread and thought someone was proposing putting them in the European union.


I wouldn't be the least surprised if that actually happens somewhere the next 2 decades.


Oh no. Not another one of you. :cry: :D
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:54 pm

Omphalos wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I read the title of this thread and thought someone was proposing putting them in the European union.


Damn foreigners. :D


Yes, damn you foreigners. :D
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Postby Phaedrus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:32 pm

HoosierDaddy on Jacurutu wrote:Omph, resorting to personal insults in a hypothetical discussion, makes me think you should seriously reconsider being a mod here. Then deleting and moving posts to your site? I also see you edited out some comments you made earlier.


At least they weren't just outright deleted. I don't know how familiar you are with the history of Dune forums, but the discussion continuing at all is more than you'd get anywhere else. Be glad Omph is willing to let people discuss hot topics and say anything they want on his site, instead of complaining when he tries to preserve the integrity and reputation of the ONLY good place to discuss Dune on the internet.

I'm done with this subject. Sorry Purge, I enjoyed your take on this, just when it was getting interesting.


No need for that, just continue it here. It's a perfectly reasonable request. Don't act like a four year old because you feel like you're being attacked. You're not.

(Posted here in honor of Omph's request that the subject(s) not be continued on Jacurutu.)
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Postby The Phantom » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:39 pm

Phaedrus wrote:(Posted here in honor of Omph's request that the subject(s) not be continued on Jacurutu.)



and the brown-noser award goes to.....
:D
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:11 pm

Hey, I want a brown-noser award too. Here's my post from Jacurutu.


HoosierDaddy wrote:Omph, resorting to personal insults in a hypothetical discussion, makes me think you should seriously reconsider being a mod here. Then deleting and moving posts to your site? I also see you edited out some comments you made earlier.

I'm done with this subject. Sorry Purge, I enjoyed your take on this, just when it was getting interesting.


Aside from that one response of his (which I think he only moved to try and get the conversation over to T(A)U) I'd assume anything he deleted was because he felt he was a bit harsh. He just asked that the discussion be continued over there because this is supposed to be a primarily Dune related site and he thought Freak might appreciate the move. Omph may get a bit... "strong worded" sometimes but I don't think he was that bad (he's said worse to me). He's just saying that he thinks it's the worst idea he's heard in a long time (I've heard worse myself, but I may hang around crazier people than Omph :wink: ) - he explicitly said he wasn't calling you stupid.

Omphalos wrote:Really, Im sorry for the personal attacks here. I tend to run off at the mouth pretty easily. Ask anyone here. I do it all the time. So please dont think that I am calling you stupid, because I dont know you well enough to say at all yet.


It's a hot topic, people will get heated, whether they should or not, it's to be expected. I don't like people jumping ship on arguments because the conversation gets too heated, especially if they started the argument with a "colourful" post (and yes Hoosier, your idea was colourful, good or bad, it was certainly inflammatory). Whenever I've posted a bad idea people have kicked my ass all over the block, and the same would happen to anyone else here.
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Postby Phaedrus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:14 pm

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Phaedrus wrote:(Posted here in honor of Omph's request that the subject(s) not be continued on Jacurutu.)



and the brown-noser award goes to.....
:D


Har har.

No, I just agree with Omphalos and Freakzilla(presumably. I don't think he's weighed in yet...). I'm hardly a brown-noser, just ask Byron or Hyppo. I'm pretty sure I've been accused of being elitist(no, wait, I think I made that claim myself, never mind), not understanding the need for rules(admittedly, I don't. They're kind of silly, for the most part), and something about being an immature little snot. But that was probably from Hyppo. Or was that SandChigger...?

The only authority figures I like are the ones that never tell me to do anything. Freak and Omph are good on that in my book.
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Postby GamePlayer » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:23 pm

Phaedrus wrote:The only authority figures I like are the ones that never tell me to do anything.


"Authority? I'll bust a cap in yo ass, chigga" :)
Speaking of which, where is he? :)

I wonder, would this whole hypothetical scenario increase the US dollar at all?
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Postby Phaedrus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:39 pm

GamePlayer wrote:
Phaedrus wrote:The only authority figures I like are the ones that never tell me to do anything.


"Authority? I'll bust a cap in yo ass, chigga" :)
Speaking of which, where is he? :)


SC? Authority? :lol:

(That should summon the bug. If that doesn't work, I'll just call him old, and he'll come out of the woodworks in no time.)
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Postby GamePlayer » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:55 pm

Actually, you have to give him a while to show, precisely because of his age :)

He's not really 50, is he?
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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:12 am

GARRRRRRRRRR!

:P

I'm pointedly staying away from this one.

And no, I'm not really 50. But I will be in about a thousand days. FUN TIMES! :D

And be very aware that I remember all these "agist" comments. :twisted:

(But I don't make screenshots. Unless they're really funny. :P )


(Edit: Useless facts of no interest time! If my calculations are correct, today is my 17,223rd day on this planet. Doesn't include in utero time, since I don't know what day I was conceived. :P )
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Postby Omphalos » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:30 am

Thanks all. I originally posted my reply at Jacurutu, then thought better of it, deleted it and moved it entirely over here. Absolutely nothing was lost. I didn't want to delete anything, or lock anything down, and Freak wants that kind of thing off his site. Since Hoosierdaddy is a member here, I couldn't imagine that he would have a problem with it. I guess I was wrong, or he took what I said personally. That is what happens when people get intellectually and emotionally wedded to their ideas; someone calls the idea stupid and they think they are being called stupid. C'est la vie!

If I really wanted to fuck with him I'd tell him to take that goddamn avatar the fuck off my board, but honestly, I don't want to screw with him. Just see if he has a hope of defending that hopeless idea. Too bad.
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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:47 am

(Locking threads...that's so HyppoByronic. :P )
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Postby GamePlayer » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:12 am

SandChigger wrote:GARRRRRRRRRR!

And be very aware that I remember all these "agist" comments. :twisted:


Not from what I've heard :P

Yeah, this looks like a discussion gone bad, especially the heavy handed moderating. That's it! I declare this forum has officially jumped the shark. It's all over. :P :wink:
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Postby orald » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:55 pm

SandChigger wrote:(Edit: Useless facts of no interest time! If my calculations are correct, today is my 17,223rd day on this planet. Doesn't include in utero time, since I don't know what day I was conceived. :P )

Pffft! :roll:

GEoD wrote:"You'd be surprised what comes of idle thinking, Moneo. I've never minded spending an entire day on things a human would not bother with for one minute.
Why not? With my life expectancy of some four thousand years, what's one day more or less? How much time does one human life count? A million minutes? I've already experienced almost that many days."
Moneo stood frozen in silence, diminished by this comparison. He felt his own lifetime reduced to a mote in Leto's eye. The source of the allusion did not escape him. Words . . . words . . . words, Moneo thought.



Though I'm not sure I get this...With 1440(60*24) minutes per day, it would be a life span of over 694.4 years for a human, and only almost 2740 years for God Leto(when he's over 1,000 years older than that when GEoD starts). Did I somehow screw the math or did God Leto lie to Moneo(he couldn't have been genuinely wrong, of course :) )?
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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:15 pm

Nope, you didn't screw the math.

For some reason FH wasn't too swift when it came to math. That or he just didn't think the details were important. OR there's some hidden meaning in the apparent mistakes.

This example, Shaddam's dates, the size of the planet Arrakis, the length of the Standard Year...there's a treasure house of screwy numbers.
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Postby chanilover » Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:27 pm

Serkanner wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I read the title of this thread and thought someone was proposing putting them in the European union.


I wouldn't be the least surprised if that actually happens somewhere the next 2 decades.


Israel and the Palestinian Authority are both members of the Mediterranean Union, as is the UK! I shit you not.
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Postby Omphalos » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:33 pm

chanilover wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I read the title of this thread and thought someone was proposing putting them in the European union.


I wouldn't be the least surprised if that actually happens somewhere the next 2 decades.


Israel and the Palestinian Authority are both members of the Mediterranean Union, as is the UK! I shit you not.


I love that British Mediterranean climate.
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Postby Rakis » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:18 pm

SandChigger wrote:(Locking threads...that's so HyppoByronic. :P )


:lol: :lol: It's contagious, i tell ya !!! :wink:
Neutrinos watch alert !

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Postby Omphalos » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:23 pm

YOUR ALL BANNED!!!! SPAMMER SCUZ MERCHANTS!!!
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Postby Rakis » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:29 pm

OMG...he's using the Omnipotent big red font... :shock:

Could we have a new skin,Omph? :P
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Postby GamePlayer » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:33 pm

I'm not sure if this is a good time to ask, but where's the smilies we were promised? And the free donuts? :wink:
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Postby Phaedrus » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:00 pm

I'm still waiting for the goddamn cookie.
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Postby Omphalos » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:37 pm

GamePlayer wrote:I'm not sure if this is a good time to ask, but where's the smilies we were promised? And the free donuts? :wink:


I'm working diligently on the layout and look of this website. I will be sure to let you all know just as soon as I have completed my heavy tasks of typing and internet searching. Please be patient or I will make your life a living hell, and speak out of both sides of my ass. This should take no more than 37 or 38 months, as I am web-MASTER of at least 24 other sites (twelve of which are dedicated to my love, my Sandchigger, and twelve of which are dedicated to that dead guy from Dr. Who), many of which are populated by demanding, immature and sleazy people such as yourselves. Plus, I haven't finished my unicorn for the banner, so just calm down please, or I'll delete everything you ever said on any forum, anywhere.
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Postby SandChigger » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:48 pm

Omphalos wrote:my love, my Sandchigger


BE STILL MY HEART! :shock:

He has at last DARED to speak aloud of our love, so long unnamed!

Oh, Omph, have you at last gotten over that cheap ChaniFanny and realized that when it comes to real manlovin', you need a man mature in years?! :?: :!:

Ooooooh!

:lol:
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Postby Omphalos » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:00 am

SandChigger wrote:you need a man mature in pears?! :?: :!:


That was not me. I was channeling the Disgustrix, but what does that mean?
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Postby Phaedrus » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:00 am

Omphalos wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:I'm not sure if this is a good time to ask, but where's the smilies we were promised? And the free donuts? :wink:


I'm working diligently on the layout and look of this website. I will be sure to let you all know just as soon as I have completed my heavy tasks of typing and internet searching. Please be patient or I will make your life a living hell, and speak out of both sides of my ass. This should take no more than 37 or 38 months, as I am web-MASTER of at least 24 other sites (twelve of which are dedicated to my love, my Sandchigger, and twelve of which are dedicated to that dead guy from Dr. Who), many of which are populated by demanding, immature and sleazy people such as yourselves. Plus, I haven't finished my unicorn for the banner, so just calm down please, or I'll delete everything you ever said on any forum, anywhere.


Now you stop that.
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Postby orald » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:19 pm

SandChigger wrote:Nope, you didn't screw the math.

For some reason FH wasn't too swift when it came to math. That or he just didn't think the details were important. OR there's some hidden meaning in the apparent mistakes.

This example, Shaddam's dates, the size of the planet Arrakis, the length of the Standard Year...there's a treasure house of screwy numbers.

I think the statement was more for the immidiate effect of "wow, he's oooold" than for Moneo to actually calculate it(as nitpickers such as us do :P ).
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Postby SandChigger » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:37 pm

Still...Leto was a Mentat or equivalent and should have been able to do the math on the fly, without thinking. "A million minutes? I've already experienced that many days!" would have been no less effective and even more dramatic...not to mention accurate.

(And I'll have you all know that I did not type "pears". Mature in pears? What's he on about now? :shock: I believe the correct reference is "peach"...which I dare eat walking on the beach, with my trousers rolled, while the mermaids sing, each to each. Ahem!)
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Postby GamePlayer » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:26 pm

Omphalos wrote: Plus, I haven't finished my unicorn for the banner, so just calm down please, or I'll delete everything you ever said on any forum, anywhere.


Sounds great. So things are a little tight this month; can a borrow a few hundred as well? :wink: :P
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Postby chanilover » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:03 am

SandChigger wrote:
Omphalos wrote:my love, my Sandchigger


BE STILL MY HEART! :shock:

He has at last DARED to speak aloud of our love, so long unnamed!

Oh, Omph, have you at last gotten over that cheap ChaniFanny and realized that when it comes to real manlovin', you need a man mature in years?! :?: :!:

Ooooooh!

:lol:


Did you know the word 'fanny' means something completely different in the UK. In the US it means 'arse', in the UK it means 'pussy'. That's why we laugh so much at Americans with their fanny bags.
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Postby SandChigger » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:16 am

Um...you post that thinking...it was completely unknown? 8)
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

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Postby Freakzilla » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:23 am

I didn't know that. :shock:
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Postby The Phantom » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:54 am

Freakzilla wrote:I didn't know that. :shock:


me neither. but i'm pretty sure i'll laugh at the next person i see with a fanny pack now.
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Postby tanzeelat » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:16 am

You can bum a fag in the UK too without being assaulted.
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Postby SandChigger » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:46 pm

I could really go for a fag right now. :cry:
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

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Postby Omphalos » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:14 pm

Im several years nicotine free, and I never thought I would make it.
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

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Postby SandChigger » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:10 pm

I'm probably gonna backslide. :(


(Dayum...everything sounds like gay slang this morning. :shock: )
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

Arrakeen is an unawakened ghola.
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Postby Omphalos » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:24 pm

Waidaminnut: Are you talking about smoking the balogna pony, or a cigarette?
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

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Postby SandChigger » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:38 pm

Um, I mean one of my remaining Indonesians.

A Garam. Not a Nebby or anything distasteful like that. :P
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

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Postby orald » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:08 am

I never knew "fanny" meant "ass" in American slang.

The British version is familier though.
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Postby Omphalos » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:10 am

orald wrote:I never knew "fanny" meant "ass" in American slang.

The British version is familier though.


Its not used much any more. I use it with my kids as its considered less vulgar than "ass," and I don't think you would hear one adult say it to another unless someone's mother was listening in to their conversation.

I had not heard of the UK meaning of that word until CL posted it the other day. But when American males go on the prowl for women they often say they want to "get some ass," instead of "get some pussy." I could see someone saying a long time ago that they would want to "get some fanny," and when it jumped the Atlantic the meaning morphed to include what was really meant? Or maybe we just misinterpreted what the British were saying and it jumped this way? Who knows, but in American slang I think that word is archaic and has been around a long time.
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Postby tanzeelat » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:36 am

I suspect the American meaning is the original, and the British one has changed. British English has altered more since Elizabethan times than US English.
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Postby Purge » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:42 am

orald wrote:I never knew "fanny" meant "ass" in American slang.

The British version is familier though.


Israel is more influenced by British English than American English, no?
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Postby tanzeelat » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:55 am

Purge wrote:Israel is more influenced by British English than American English, no?


Sadly, most places around the world these days are more influenced by US English. Thanks to Hollywood, US music, US television, and US marketing for product like McDonald's, Cocoa-Cola, KFC, etc.
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Postby SandChigger » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:20 pm

True...but some Anglophile hearts still beat true! :D


(Umph! I think mine just skipped a beat. :shock: )
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

"Politics is never simple, like the sand chigger of Arrakis, one is rarely truly free of its bite."

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Postby chanilover » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:46 am

tanzeelat wrote:I suspect the American meaning is the original, and the British one has changed. British English has altered more since Elizabethan times than US English.


According to the Collins English dictionary on my desk, it says the word comes from the name Frances. Oh well, that explains everything!
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Postby Freakzilla » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:59 am

I started to add a while ago that it's also a woman's name.
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Postby Omphalos » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:05 am

chanilover wrote:
tanzeelat wrote:I suspect the American meaning is the original, and the British one has changed. British English has altered more since Elizabethan times than US English.


According to the Collins English dictionary on my desk, it says the word comes from the name Frances. Oh well, that explains everything!


Frances was a whore.
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Postby chanilover » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:09 am

There's also stuff about "sweet FA", meaning "sweet fuck-all". Some people, apparently, say sweet Fanny Adams, who was a girl or prostitute whose chopped-up remains were found in a suitcase.
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Postby Omphalos » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:18 am

She was a prostitute? I thought some psycho killed here when seh was a little girl.
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Postby orald » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:23 pm

Frances was a whore

And France still is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_adams

And what does that say about Calabans who call themselves Fanny? :shock:
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