FTL and Hol-something-or-other, from DN

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Omphalos
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FTL and Hol-something-or-other, from DN

Post by Omphalos »

This is one of SC's threads from DN called "FTL and Hol-something-or-other

Here is a link to the original:
SandChigger wrote:Is there any reason (citations, please!) to think there was "vroom-vroom" (FTL travel) before space-folding in the Duniverse?

The Religion Appendix in Dune says only (emphasis added):
To begin with, early space travel, although widespread, was largely unregulated, slow, and uncertain, and, before the Guild monopoly, was accomplished by a hodgepodge of methods.
This doesn't specifically exclude supraluminal travel, but "slow" makes me wonder. Hodgepodge of methods could mean anything from "lighthuggers" to generation ships, to suspended animation, etc.

If the Duniverse is consistent with our current understanding of the real universe, then FTL travel is impossible and exploration/colonization limited to subluminal speeds until the advent of space-folding.

Lacking any means of supraluminal communication, for the Old Empire and its various elements to exist at all (I'm thinking primarily of the Landsraad, which is composed of 13,333 members and predates the Jihad by ca. 2,000 years), space-folding has to have been available for a considerable amount of time, measured in millennia (at the very least two millennia, based on the age of the Landsraad). (Naturally, pre-Jihad navigation would have used computers/AIs.)

I am not the first to come to this conclusion, of course: the authors of the non-canonical Dune Encyclopedia place the discovery of space-folding "ten centuries" after humankind begins to leave Earth for deep space. (Interestingly enough, they credit the discovery to an AI!)

A related question, then, concerns when exactly Holtzman lived. I can find no references placing him in any definite historical period. Does anyone know of any?


The poll is just for squints and giggles, btw. But here's a rundown of the typographical diversity (apologies in advance for including New Canon stats in this forum...isn't it time maybe the category names were changed a bit? -There's a real poll question, eh!):

Holtzman (D:3; HA:21; HH:7; HC:7; TBJ:259; MC:241; BoC:64; HuoD:4, scan incomplete)
Holzmann (CH:D:10)
Holtzmann (CoD:2; HC:6 = scan errors?)
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boardadmin wrote:When referring to fold-space technology, I think just about any other "type" of space travel might be considered "slow", wouldn't you?

As to the differences in spelling of Holtzman(n), it would be interesting to see in what context each variation appears (i.e., how many are from Irulan's notes, etc.). I think this may not be a spelling mistake at all, but simply FH's way of showing us how time changes all things, and perhaps they don't know how to spell his name; it's been lost over the eons. My two cents...
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Isnt it a shame that Hotlzman was destroyed near the end of the BJ on his fifth trip through the Liesco system. :wink:
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SandChigger wrote:
boardadmin wrote:When referring to fold-space technology, I think just about any other "type" of space travel might be considered "slow", wouldn't you?
Waall, yeah, everything else is "slow" by comparison...but there's slow and then there's sloooooooooow, man! :D

(Hopefully that last won't be taken as an invocation! :shock: )

In other words, if you don't have a car, a bicycle beats walking beats crawling on all fours, ya know? (Ignoring the existence of public transport, of course!)

(Nice deflector, though, Scottie! :wink: )
As to the differences in spelling of Holtzman(n), it would be interesting to see in what context each variation appears (i.e., how many are from Irulan's notes, etc.). I think this may not be a spelling mistake at all, but simply FH's way of showing us how time changes all things, and perhaps they don't know how to spell his name; it's been lost over the eons. My two cents...
Ah...I hadn't thought of using that one on this...primarily because they're just orthographic differences. The only variant that would make any change in pronunciation is the "Holzmann" used in Chapterhouse (I'm assuming the extra 'n' at the end wouldn't make any difference); this seems a different critter than "Keen" or "Gammu". I'll go back and check, though it seems the difference would only be significant if used in passages that are portrayed as actual quotes of written documents or messages, like the epigraphs (Irulan's notes?) or appendices. (Use in conversation would be non-significant, I think, because then the spelling isn't an issue...no character asks another the poll question, for example.)

As for the name getting lost...in the latter books especially these are BG or people taught history by them, not some pyon sandsifters from the northern villages. (If they can confirm the authenticity of old Greek coins, they can remember the name of the man credited with discovering foldspace, surely?)
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SandChigger wrote:
Omphalos wrote:Isnt it a shame that Hotlzman was destroyed near the end of the BJ on his fifth trip through the Liesco system. :wink:
ANATHEMA!!!

:shock:

Er...I mean...

APOCRYPHA!?!

:D
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SandChigger wrote:
Omphalos wrote:Isnt it a shame that Hotlzman was destroyed near the end of the BJ on his fifth trip through the Liesco system. :wink:
ANATHEMA!!!

:shock:

Er...I mean...

APOCRYPHA!?!

:D
Considering the competition, The good doctor will get my vote every time.

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tanzeelat wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
ANATHEMA!!!
Excellent band (http://www.anathema.ws/). Saw them live last year.

:-)
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SandChigger wrote:I take it then that no one other than Byron has anything to say about the FTL question?

Since Frank Herbert was not specific about the period when Holtzman lived and foldspace travel discovered, it is possible to imagine a history of the Duniverse that does not require FTL ships...thereby remaining consistent with scientific theory then and now.
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Omphalos wrote:
SandChigger wrote:I take it then that no one other than Byron has anything to say about the FTL question?

Since Frank Herbert was not specific about the period when Holtzman lived and foldspace travel discovered, it is possible to imagine a history of the Duniverse that does not require FTL ships...thereby remaining consistent with scientific theory then and now.
Im not sure what else can really be said, Sandchigger. With the time line that we are talking about, and what limited information we have about distances, it would certainly seem possible for slowboats to get to the known planets in the empire and build up the civilizations on them that existed in the time frame of the books. Or more specifically, the time frames do not rule it out.

As for "hodgepodge," that could, as Im sure you have already considered, include methods that theoretically approach lightspeed, such as lightsails, nuke burst, ramjets, et al. (Is this what you meant by "lighthuggers"?)

On the other hand, the BJ occurred before foldspace technology was really implemented (I think - and Im not thinking of the new books depiction of it). I cant really imagine a social movement/war on the scale of the BJ surviving long enough to touch every planet without some sort of FTL drive.

An I right or wrong about when folding space came along?
Something is about to happen, Hal. Something wonderful!

-James C. Harwood, Science Fiction Writer, Straight (March 5, 1956 - May 25, 2010)



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