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THE (ALMOST) UNDELETED • View topic - GHOST IN THE SHELL - Omnibus Thread

GHOST IN THE SHELL - Omnibus Thread

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GHOST IN THE SHELL - Omnibus Thread

Postby SandChigger » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:11 am

I know Eru is a fan; anybody else?

It's Frid...well, actually, it's already Saturday here now, so I just watched two more episodes of the first GitS TV series. It's kinda less "fun" now that the Tachikomas have been sent off for reprogramming, but Motoko still kicks ass.

Back during the holidays, they showed three of the GitS movies on one night. (I'll check WP later for the English titles.) I meant to post something about them earlier, but got distracted

Anyway, there are some human-machine interface questions & philosophical issues this series brings up that I'd like to get into later. I decided to start this thread here rather than at Arrakeen because I really don't feel like having to deal with any of Arnoldo's bullshit commentary.

More later!
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Postby GamePlayer » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:50 am

WOW! Never expected to see a thread like this! I'd be happy to talk about Ghost In The Shell. It's one of my all time favorite anime series!

I own both Ghost in the Shell films and almost the first complete season of Stand Alone Complex. I also REALLY want to see the Solid State Society film, though I want to complete both first season and 2nd Gig BEFORE I watch the film (I've been told by others that it's best to view them in that order).

Funny thing is, I've never read the manga. I've always wanted to read the GITS manga, much like the Akira manga, but there always seems to be a more important priority. I'm not a big manga fan and read only one or two per year (mostly because availability is tough; it's certainly not for lack of interest). Right now, The Five Star Stories manga has taken priority, so GITS is still in the queue :)
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Postby Omphalos » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:36 am

I gotta watch these things some day. I think Ive seen one of them, though. Cant remember right now if that is what it was.
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Postby GamePlayer » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:36 am

Of all the anime I've watched, films and series such as Ghost in the Shell would probably have the highest crossover potential with Dune fans. The two films Ghost in the Shell and Ghost in the Shell Innocence in particular, directed by auture Mamoru Oshii, would certainly appeal to those with a taste for the existential and strange (like the many David Lynch fans I've found among Dune fandom). I don't usually have much to recommend to the literary crowd, but I'd safely recommed GITS for those willing to try.
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Re: GHOST IN THE SHELL - Omnibus Thread

Postby Eru » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:39 pm

SandChigger wrote:I decided to start this thread here rather than at Arrakeen because I really don't feel like having to deal with any of Arnoldo's bullshit commentary.

More later!

RA'men to that, brutha'! Apart from Miss Pris and her Hissy fits, sludging through arnie's inane blathering is making perusing 'Keen less of a joy and more of a painful chore every day.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to more discussions of GitS (esp. Dune-related ones). GitS is very close to how I imagine the pre-Jihad Duniverse. Yes, "independent robots" and A.I. are present, but they play a back-seat role to the human factor. Just imagine a world like the one in GitS, where the powers that be begin limiting the rights of cyberized (or non-cyberized for that matter) humans. Or where a faction of non-cyberized humanity decides cyberization is a threat to the human race itself. By GAWD books surrounding the BJ could have been cool...
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Postby SandChigger » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:27 pm

Hee hee. Tapped into a live one here, I see. :D
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Postby Phaedrus » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:51 pm

I absolutely love both GitS movies. I haven't watched the anime series, mostly because I refuse to watch it dubbed, and I haven't watched anime in...about two years now.

But I still watch both those movies on occasion. In-fucking-credible movies, with lots of neat quotes back and forth between characters. Got to love it, especially when you're trying to recognize all of the various sources.
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Postby SandChigger » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:27 am

If I may go a bit off-topic, for me the real problem with the Butlerian Jihad is it comes SO DAMNED LATE.

I assume increasing "cyberization" and the creation of a real AI as a spin-off of research in modeling the human mind, rather closer in the future to our time than to that of the BJ, say several hundred years from now. That leaves over 10,000 years of (not necessarily peaceful) coexistence that has to be explained in a plausible history of the Duniverse.

I've commented before (over on the DN BBS, I believe) that I feel Frank Herbert paints a pretty dismal picture of humanity in Dune; after 20,000-plus years, we basically haven't evolved very much. In fact, the feudal social structure of the Imperium represents a devolution IMO. The susceptibility of populations to religious manipulation is another sign of little real development. (Or of regression?)

I suppose, since history seems to repeat itself, that periods of greater "cyberization" could be followed by periods of lesser reliance following "humanist revivalist" backlashes against such technology, spread across worlds and systems at varying levels of development, with the Jihad coming as one great final backlash to end them all.

And as I've also said before, I don't buy either the Legends "Oops, I done dropped da baby!" or the Encyclopedia's "Da bad AI done aborted my fetus!" as a sufficient catalyst for a Jihad across 13,000 worlds.

Anyway.... ;)
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Postby GamePlayer » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:55 am

Going back on topic... :wink:

Is anyone familiar with the Ghost In The Shell manga or in particular the fandom? As a huge fan of the films, especially the first one, I find the manga fans who complain endlessly about the changes made for the film a never ending source of inane bitching. I bring this up because I've been going through my new Stanley Kubrick DVD set listening to the commentary for the Shining. The manga fans attacking Oshii's masterpiece of film remind me of the King fan hordes that never fail to bemoan Kubrick's masterpiece of celluloid because it's not a faithful adaptation of the King book. As long as the end result is a great film, why should we give a shit? It's not like V For Vendetta where the film was given this whole polarized, anti-right slant that wasn't in the book. The themes remained the same, both in The Shining and GITS. These fans can't seem to tell the difference between the majority of unfaithful Hollywood schlock adaptations and someone who just uses source material as a base to create something great. I think I've put off reading the Ghost In The Shell manga simply because I dislike so many of the brainless bitches that adore the manga and try to tear down the film.

It's just boggles my mind. If you can't tell the difference between the end result of a proper film adaptation like Ghost In The Shell and the end result of something like I, Robot, do us all a favor and wear a dunce cap :)
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Postby SandChigger » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:09 pm

The three "movies" I watched on the 4th were:

GitS Stand Alone Complex: The Laughing Man

GitS S.A.C. 2nd GIG Individual Eleven

GitS S.A.C. Solid State Society


I guess it would have been better to see them AFTER watching the regular series, but so it goes. A lot of scenes from the TV series were cut to make "The Laughing Man", though. (For example, the whole subarc about the plot to drug Aramaki, who is looking for his long-lost older brother, and arrest him on narcotics charges, to discredit Section 9.)

I still haven't tried tracking down the original manga, but plan to eventually. (Maybe I'll break with my hermit lifestyle and run down to Wonder Goo later this afton. It's a public holiday here today, though, so it'll probably be crowded...bleh! :) )

Since I'm a new fan, I'm not familiar with all the fuss over the films. Coming from the TV series and films first, and knowing ahead of time that there will be differences, I can't say I'm going to be much bothered. ;)
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Postby SandChigger » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:18 am

Just watched the last two episodes of the first series. :D

2nd GIG starts next week. Whoohoo! 8)

Was kinda sad when the three tachikoma bit it. :(

I'm kinda curious now about the English dubbing, how they've translated certain bits. ;)


(I'm starting to get concerned about my emoticon addiction. :shock:)
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Postby GamePlayer » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:11 am

Ack! I haven't seen all of first season yet! I'm only up to DVD 5. Thanks for the spoilers, you filthy tick :) :lol:

Don't worry about emoticon addiction, you're in good company :P :lol:

(which gets me thinking, have they been banned yet on a certain"website"?) :shock:

Does anyone else think there may be a formatting concern happening on Almost Undeleted? This very post is giving me a bad vibe... :wink:
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Postby SandChigger » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:05 pm

Oops. :oops:

Sorry 'bout that.


Hmm...since, unlike Poey (What's happened to Poey, btw? He still around on DN?) you've never expressed an interest in the local lingo over here that I can recall, I assume you're watching them in English, yes?

Let me know when you've finished watching; I've got some questions about how they handled certain things. (Don't worry, won't be anything too bothersome! ;) )


Edit: We had 26 episodes over here; what does DVD #5 translate into?
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Postby Omphalos » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:42 pm

Poey couldn't take it all and bugged off of Arrakeen and DN for good.
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Postby Robspierre » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:31 am

I just added the first season to my netflix list but it will be awhile before I get to them ,but i can let you know Chig. I usually watch them in the original Japanese with the subs on but I can check episodes for you when it comes around.

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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:53 am

Thanks, Rob!

In Japanese with the subtitles...forgot about that option. ;)


(Too bad about Poey; he was kinda fun sometimes. Started taking Japanese classes in the Fall, IIRC. Should check to see if he's still on MySpace.)
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Postby GamePlayer » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:38 am

I watch nearly all my anime in Japanese with english subtitles. It's more enjoyable and usually the Japanese voice actors aren't nearly as awful, though there are exceptions :)

DVD #5 goes up to episode 20.
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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:49 am

OK.

(I've complained about Japanese voice actors before, but they only really irritate me when they're dubbing something originally in English. ;) )

So...what, there are 7 DVDs with some filler extras on the 7th?
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Postby GamePlayer » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:35 pm

Generally speaking, english dubbing of anime and me don't get along. About the only english dub I can watch is CowBoy Bebop and I still find the original Japanese audio superior. Japanese voice actors can be poor but I find them more tolerable because 1) I can dismiss a lot of the awkwardness of Japanese dialogue as cultural differences, 2) I can't understand Japanese so it's easier to swallow bad VO unless it's REALLY bad and 3) if you're an anime fan, you already have a naturally tolerance for kawaii when it's over played in Japanese dialog :)

Yes, 7 DVDs per season. I haven't seen DVD 6 or 7, so I can't say what's on them for extras. But the DVD production is typically staggered so you might have more episodes on one disk than you do on another. For example, Cowboy Bebop is also a 26 episode series on 6 discs, with discs 1 and 2 featuring 5 episodes each with the remaining 16 episodes spread across the 4 remaining discs evenly.
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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:09 pm

OK. You can probably tell I don't watch a lot of series DVDs. ;)

This interested me in particular:

GamePlayer wrote:1) I can dismiss a lot of the awkwardness of Japanese dialogue as cultural differences

Could that be awkwardness of the translation into English? The road can get a bit bumpy moving from a high context to low context language. Any examples come to mind? :)
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Postby Robspierre » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:03 pm

It can be interesting to watch a series dubbed in english with the subtitles on to see the differences and choices made. The dubbing has gotten better though I usually stick with the original japanese, I think not knowing a lot of th cultural references in many ways means the viewer just doesn't think too much about the voice acting in particular and yes, sometimes reading some subtitles you can tell that they had issues with the translation.

I do remember in the BubbleGum Crisis 2032 release in one episode the translation was "Even a little puppy like me can nibble and asshole like you" which was changed in the english dub AND the dvd release of that series.

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Postby GamePlayer » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:24 pm

I can't really comment on the actual translations of language, I was referring more to the nuances of Japanese culture that appear again and again in the Japanese language. Mostly the honorifics and formalities which come across as excessively deferential to a North American person such as myself and the change in speech can come across as forced and even silly in voice acting. It like a "what was that" factor for little nuances of VO and even animated movements that happen in the middle of a scene and leave an outsider like myself scratching his head.

Naturally, dubbing doesn't handle this at all, which is why even when dubbing is good it feels disjointed and out of place unless the visuals are also edited.
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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:43 pm

The trick is to translate the Japanese honorific language in proper English equivalents. (Because even English has honorific language, it's just not expressed like in Japanese with special morphology and all.)

It occurred to me reading your comments that it would be fun to watch a few episodes together with you guys and talk about what things strike you as odd and all.

Maybe in somebody's hotel room some evening or two at the DuneCon? :D
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Postby Robspierre » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:58 pm

maybe because of been watching anime since the mid 80's I just don't see that stuff as jarring anymore, I just go with the flow. I do spend a lot of time checking out the backgrounds though.....


I love group anime watching, especially the more esoteric stuff ala MST 3000.

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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:52 pm

:D

I'll bring the sembei!
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Postby Robspierre » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:00 pm

I'll whip up some snacks! :lol:

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Postby SandChigger » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:45 pm

When I got home last night I found a CD-ROM in the mailbox, dropped off by a friend who shares the Tachikoma addiction. On it were about 50 videos swiped from various sites, mostly Tachikoma-na Hibi ("Tachikomatic Days") shorts dubbed into English. But there was also one longish subtitled clip from the first season, towards the end where Batou breaks into Motoko's safe house.

I hate to be bitching all the time, but the subtitles weren't all that good. I've got a better feel for one source of that "awkwardness" now. :(
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Postby GamePlayer » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:15 am

The Tachikoma Days were included in the official region one releases. Usually one per episode.

If you obtained the Tachikoma Day shorts in another format, it's quite possible you have bootleg versions. Hence, the subtitles will be horrible because they are not done correctly by skilled, experienced translators. The gansters have some poor soul who was deported from an english-speaking country to do the translations. So expect plenty of "You has love for me, now kisses" kinda dialog. :)
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Postby SandChigger » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:38 pm

Actually, that crossed my mind.

But this was a different order of critter. The English was grammatically correct and natural on its own, just didn't create a natural flow corresponding to what was being said in Japanese. (Let me know when you've watched all of the first season. I don't want to say more about the actual scene for fear of giving something away. Again. :()

I kinda got the feeling that more than one person might have worked on the translation. Because gaffs would be followed a little later by something well done. Who knows!

An example (without giving anything away) is when a character is told to do something and says "Wakatta." Literally this means "I understand" (well, actually, it literally means "(it has been) divided => analysed => understood" ;)) but was translated "I know." The most natural English response in the situation would have been "OK." Later the same character says something like "You should stop kidding" where "You gotta be kidding" or "Give me a break" would have been better.

I kinda wonder if the translator wasn't just handed a transcript and hadn't seen the episode or know what was going on.

(And there was one really weird translation: fuhatsudan was rendered as "Curved Cannon" (huh?) instead of the correct "dud (shell)".)
"Chancho...sometimes when you are a man...you wear stretchy pants...in your room...alone."

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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:28 am

Kinda in connection with Seraphan's sig image (of Batou & his dog Gabu [Gabriel]) and voice actors....

I was just sitting here at the kotatsu in front of the TV going through some email during the critical mass of CMs (commercial minutes? = commercials) between Galactica episodes (Super Drama TV is doing a "kyatchappu marason" until 1:00 AM; started at 6:00 or so; this is the third of four nights; they entered the Tomb of Athena and found the map to Earth in the last episode, so this is Season 2?).

Anyway, I'm not paying attention to the screen but suddenly I hear Batou's voice. "Oy, Batou da!" I thinks and look up only to see Benson from E.R. Since I never listen to US shows in Japanese, I'd never made the connection before. (His name is Akio Otsuka, btw.) :D

One other one I do know, though, is that the voice actor who did Motoko (Atsuko Tanaka) also does the intro narration and Lilly Rush character on "Cold Case". Hubbah. ;)
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Postby Seraphan » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:11 am

Hey Chig have you seen the new "Ghost in the Shell 2.0" the remake with new CGI?
Image
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Postby GamePlayer » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:13 am

I was excited to see Ghost In The Shell 2.0, but now that I have I'm left quite underwhelmed by the result.
The constant switching from 3D character animation to 2D character animation is not working for me. I keep getting pulled out of the moment. Also, some of the scenes are suffering from CG "miniature syndrome", where all the objects feel like watching toy models.
Also, the color palette of the film is thrown off with all the golds and light blooms. I'm not sure what the point of all that is.

Where they did score points with the new CG work is all in the little embellishments; 3D fish tanks in the background, light sources and flares, volumetric shading on things like clips and firearms. That all looked awesome.

But overall, gotta say I'm disappointed by this. I'm not feeling it :(

Here's a link to the 10 minute clip I watched:
http://toponeraegunbuster.com/media/GitS2point0.avi
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Postby SandChigger » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:09 pm

Huh...hadn't even heard anything about it. :(

Will check out the clip from the office tomorrow. ;)
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